And a happy new year to you guys!:bouncing:

EU has no control over your nation's healthcare. It's those bastards you keep electing who do that.

I get what Aqua is saying. If you are an EU member, you have to follow the rules. But this is not a reason to leave the EU. It needs to be fought within the EU. Australia is a small (population wise) independent nation and the same bullshit is going on there.

The UK is leaving the EU, but it is in the thrall of conservatives, some of whom are even talking about the advantages of war. Believe me, health, education and employment will not improve after Brexit is complete. Brexit just makes it easier for the vultures to exploit the isolated population of Britain.

You are right about the banks. I keep asking myself why banks are more powerful than countries; that's upside down. All countries should nationalise their banks and renationalise all the utilities that have been sold in a false economy to raise government funds.

I have come to the conclusion that unemployment is now the main issue everywhere in the world. If everyone in Britain had a job, why would they care if those Pakistanis around the corner also had jobs? The status quo in Britain of fear mongering about foreigners taking jobs would just vanish if everyone had a job. Employers should not be allowed to function without following strict rules, the main one being providing plentiful employment.

All you hear about is how the current rules make it hard for small employers, meanwhile, they are, all taken together as a group, only a small fraction of the whole economy. Multi nationals are the true rulers of the Western World and they are getting away with murder. Unemployment is a crime against humanity!

You can't fight it from inside the EU cause it's the central european bank that makes the rules and says what economical policy you have to apply, once you've regain control over your money, you don't have to borrow money from the central european bank, as we have to do now. It wasn't the case when I was young. When I was young, the government didn't need to borrow money to apply the policies they wanted to apply.

Plus, everybody knows that EU politics is a game of lobby influences, what do you want to do with that? It's not the way a sane healthy political system works. That system is rotten to the core.

As for the UK, it'll depend on what the politicians will do in the next few years. Of course, if there was full employment in the country, most of the resentment against foreigners would be appeased, but it won't happen unless the government stops the companies from sending the work in countries with little to no social security, payroil charges, etc. It's up to them to take the decisions necessary to do what they want, if they still have the power to do it. Cause, as you say, multi nationals rule the world, but they rule it cause we let them do it. But there's a tool called nationalization, we used to use that tool in the past.

And by the way, Brexit wasn't just about the fear of foreigners, just like Trump's election isn't just the result of some racist white votes, this aspect of the thing was largely exaggerated to prevent any other argument in favor of leaving the Eu from being discussed. It was a simple plan to divide the population into two groups, the good morally superior guys who vote for staying VS the bad racist old-fashionned guys who voted for leaving. Such an easy way of discrediting a part of the voting population.

It's because, whenever an impopular decision was made, politicians blamed it on the EU to wipe their own slate clean. The EU is largely invisible to people in the street. Making its position in The Netherlands extra hard now that it's the only country that's a net payer - all the other EU countries get more money from the EU than they contribute.

The EU would've worked out if it wasn't for the southern countries not obeying the financial regulations, thereby dragging all the other EU countries in their fal; and the expansion to Eastern Europe where the governments are owned by organized crime syndicates.

We had a double dip economy-wise but with Brexit and Trump it's going to be a triple dip. I blame short-sighted people who think that the situation in their individual country will get better if they leave the corrupt powers in but cut the large treaties.

Heathcare is not going to improve if France goes out of the EU, for the simple reason that EU doesn't regulate healthcare.
It will be very bad economically for France because it's a net gaining country, one of the largest gainers at that - because it's going to be bad for French economy it's going to be bad for healthcare since if there are budget cuts to be made by your government, it'll be done in the healthcare section.

I obviously need to investigate the EU system further. But I can't accept that many isolated countries is good for the future. I see only conflict coming out of that.

Bonny, the EU doesn't regulate healthcare, that's true, they regulate the money we need to continue to apply that policy, so in the end, yes they control it, their only economic policy is: cut the expenses, cut social charges, cut social security, etc, etc It's the policy of restriction imposed by the central european bank that led to the state Greece is in, or at least aggravated it.

Getting out of the EU will make us regain control on our money, we won't have to pay interests, we won't follow restriction policies that don't work.

And I agree with you, the political class in each country is corrupted, but the european one is just as corrupted, if not more, their decisions are mainly influenced by financial lobbies with only their interests in mind. That's also one of the reasons why the nationalist parties in each country are on the rise, cause people wrongly think they will do what they say they'll do. People are tired of being told they have restrict themselves when they know the system worked well in the past, when the government hadn't given up their power to the big companies and banks.

The idea of a united european state isn't bad in and of itself, but it wasn't well prepared, and wasn't well applied. And it was quickly infected by greedy bastards.

Quote: Originally posted by polydigm

I obviously need to investigate the EU system further. But I can't accept that many isolated countries is good for the future. I see only conflict coming out of that.

Well, there was a time when each of these isolated countries ruled the world. So it's not necessarily a question of size.
Now, I agree with you, in the end, a united europe can be a good thing, but how can we create it? I don'treally know, but it surely won't work if we let the banks and the big companies create it.

Wel we have a bad track record when it comes to having European states coexist without war...
The main reason why healthcare is going down everywhere, is the prolonged economic crisis, healthcare and education are always the first categories to get the boot. There is no way leaving the EU will improve your healthcare.

The Greek crisis is because the situation that existed of hyper-rich people leeching the country, went on for way too long. The EU was lied to all the time about the financial state of the country, until it was too late. There's a limit to what the Troika can and will bail out - they're tied to other countries facing crises, remember.

Quote: Originally posted by aquagoat

... but it surely won't work if we let the banks and the big companies create it.

There we are in total agreement. Like I said, banks should be nationalised and big companies should be made to follow very strict rules. It's an upside down world.

Quote: Originally posted by BBP

Wel we have a bad track record when it comes to having European states coexist without war... The main reason why healthcare is going down everywhere, is the prolonged economic crisis, healthcare and education are always the first categories to get the boot. There is no way leaving the EU will improve your healthcare. The Greek crisis is because the situation that existed of hyper-rich people leeching the country, went on for way too long. The EU was lied to all the time about the financial state of the country, until it was too late. There's a limit to what the Troika can and will bail out - they're tied to other countries facing crises, remember.

I agree with you about our conflictual past. But I don't think it's necessary to be in the EU to live together without having a war every 50 years, lot's of countries in the world live side by side without conflicts and without being in a conglomerate of states.

Damned, I started a political debate without wanting it, I hate that, it's a very useless thing to do.

Thank you all for this discussion on the EU. I learned stuff!
:bouncy:

And certainly, have a happy new year all!

Quote: Originally posted by aquagoat

Damned, I started a political debate without wanting it, I hate that, it's a very useless thing to do.

The world does change. I don't believe it's useless to talk about and we're all being quite civilised about it. You've both given me food for thought anyway.

Happy new year Punky, it's about time you dropped by.

Hey, happy new year, Punky, glad to see you around.

With BF up north again... :bald:

Some predicted bad weather in Normandy forcing us to change our plans tomorrow. Still having a good time meeting up with relatives.

There's been some snow in The Netherlands, not much where I am right now but storm's been predicted.
It may be Friday 13th but I haven't had any bad luck so far, unlike on Tuesday, Wednesday and yesterday when I contracted food poisoning.

Back home!